The Freemasonic & Illuminist Conspirers Documented in Mainstream History

By: Jay This one goes out to all those skeptics who, for some reason, always trust the "mainstream" historians. This fact is odd, since often times what is "mainstream" is actually a prepackaged ideology created and funded by a certain interest, like Rockefeller & CIA funding of various feminist projects in order to break up the family, for example. But I know, that never happened and I made that up, even though their authorized biography is open about it. As a college student who has taken several history classes, I was amazed to see how many class texts actually talk about the influence of both Freemasonry and the Order of the Illuminati, particularly in the French Revolution. First of all, I am aware that these historians probably don't think there is a secret cabal that has been steadily working over the past few centuries towards certain goals such as global government and a one world religion. That's not the purpose of this article. My purpose is more basic, since most people have never even heard of the Illuminati or Masonic conspiracies. I simply want to show that mainstream historians—internationally known historians—openly talk about the existence of these cults and their operations in history. I want to first demonstrate that these are real historic entities, and then, in a follow-up article, speak of their present day activities. Bristol University Historian William Doyle has written a lengthy, well-known work on the French Revolution titled The Oxford History of the French Revolution: Second Edition, which is a case in point. In case you don't know, the French Revolution was itself a Freemasonic bloodbath. In an insightful section, he writes:

Established religion might be losing its mystical appeal, but science was bringing other miracles to light. Seekers after this newer, truer, wisdom believed themselves to most likely find it in the ‘Royal Art’ of freemasonry. Between 800 and 900 masonic lodges were founded in France between 1723 and 1993, two-thirds of them after 1760. Between 1773 and 1779 well over 20,000 members were recruited. Few towns of any consequence were without one or more Masonic lodges by the 1780s, and despite several papal condemnations of a deistic cult that had originated in Protestant England [meaning masonry], the elite of society flocked to join. Voltaire himself was drafted in on his last visit to Paris, and it was before the assembled brethren of the Nine Sisters Lodge that he exchanged symbolic embraces with [Benjamin] Franklin. Masonry was riddled with hierarchy….And whereas most Masonic assemblies consisted of rituals, followed by much eating and drinking, some brothers dreamed of putting the organization to more practical use….Mostly they steered clear of politics; but the sensational exposure in 1787 of a plot by self-styled Illuminati to use Masonic organization to subvert the government of Bavaria threw general suspicion on to a movement much of whose appeal lay in its secrecy (pg. 65).

Doyle proceeds to mention the credulity of the age as a factor in believing that conspiracies existed. Didn’t a conspiracy kill Caesar? Didn’t a conspiracy kill Christ? Didn’t Hitler burn down the Reichstag building and blame it on Communists? What about the Kennedy deaths? Didn’t people conspire to kill them, whoever you think killed them? And yet, in a clear example of doublespeak, after telling you that the Freemasons are a deistic cult and that the Illuminati really existed, the reader is actually supposed to accept that ” belief in plots and conspiracies were a sign of the credulity of the times” (65).

Yale Historian R.R. Palmer has written another definitive work on the French Revolution titled The World of the French Revolution, 1971. In two very “enlightening” sections, Palmer declares:

Meanwhile, among German Catholics, a group of ex-Jesuits at Augsburg likewise attacked the Enlightenment, and especially the Illuminati, or “enlightened ones,” who were discovered and suppressed in Bavaria in 1786. The Illuminati were a secret association, some of whose members were in the service of the Bavaria or other states. They hoped by persuasion to work for a general world-renewal (pg. 243).

By “world renewal,” he means world government. Earlier, Palmer wrote:

In the 1780s, as an offshoot of Freemasonry, an erratic manifestation of the Enlightenment, there was formed in Germany a secret society called the Illuminati, the “enlightened ones,” which recruited a few hundred members. The Illuminati had vague ideas of world renewal by infiltration of the existing authorities….It became the fashion to believe, in some conservative circles, first in Germany and then elsewhere, that revolution wherever found was caused by “philosophers,” Freemasons, and Illuminati (93).

So, now we know there at least was a secret society plotting for world government. University of South Carolina historian Owen Connelly’s standard textbook on the French Revolution (The French Revolution & The Napoleonic Era, 1979), states:

The Freemasons were the best organized of the proponents of enlightenment. Their intellectual elitism and secret semi-religious ceremonies drew into their rank liberal aristocrats and bourgeoise, as well as the philosophes themselves. They were deists…Membership transcended national boundaries and formal religious affiliation. Among French Masons were the Duke of Orleans, the king’s cousin-LaFayette, a marquis of noble-lineage; and many other nobles, together with leading philosophes. Frederick the Great of Prussia headed the Berlin Lodge. Most of the British intelligentsia belonged…The French Order was anathema to the Catholic Church (though many French Bishops attended meetings)(pg. 30).

Again, though Connelly does not believe in any conspiracy, and though the other historians admit it, Connelly avows Masonry’s semi-religious nature. Most Masons, however, do not even think their society is religious, but rather essentially neutral—a civic organization that requires only belief in a “god.” But that “god” is nondescript, and could thus be any being. Masonry is the perfect avenue for demonic subterfuge, inasmuch as it carries a thin veneer of social philanthropy. From Masonic historians and thinkers, however, we know who the “god” of masonry is. Freemasonic authority Albert Pike, whose works are standard reference for Scottish Rite Masons notes in his Morals and Dogma:

“Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead….(pg 104-5) The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended he shall imagine he understands them (pg. 819).

Manly P. Hall, an authority of the Craft speaks openly of Freemasonry:

“When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy.” Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, (pg. 48)

“I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfill my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed…{ Invocant signs pact with his own blood } ” from Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, The Secret Teaching of all Ages, pg. CIV

So, we see that Masonry is not, in terms of its official teachers, even remotely Christian. It’s openly Satanic in its highest levels and promotes an openly Luciferian and occult philosophy. Mainstream historians tell you that the Illuminati existed and that it was involved in various intrigues and plots. Now that we have established their existence and peeped into their philosophy, in my next article, I’ll discuss their present-day actions.

59 Comments on The Freemasonic & Illuminist Conspirers Documented in Mainstream History

  1. Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 3:38 pm // Reply

    You had me interested until you began quoting Pike and Hall. You obviously did no more research into Freemasonry then the average Internet troll. What are they teaching you people in college. It is no wonder our education system is way behind the rest of the world if this is the type of research that is considered scholarly.
    Please get off the Internet and actually read an entire book. I would suggest A Pilgrim’s Path by John Robinson or even Diogenes Lamp by Adam Weishaupt (founder of the Illuminati written in exile).
    It is nice to blame a historical event on one group, but your shallow research is disingenuous at best, has a hidden agenda of it’s own at worst.
    Please stay in school as you may be a danger to the private sector with your apparent lack of your own mind to grasp ideas.
    To conclude, Pike’s Morals and Dogma was a 800+ page tome with a 200 page index about historical, comparative religion and it’s relation to the allegory of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. By the way the Scottish Rite and York rite are subordinate to the regular Master Mason Lodge, in that if one loses their membership in their 3rd degree Lodge, they are automatically expelled from their Scottish Rite an/or York Rite bodies. As well Morals & Dogma have a frontispiece that clearly states that all are free to disagree or completely disregard all of what Pike says as his own opinion.
    Manly P. Hall is easy as he wrote the quote you use when he was barely 21 years old and some 30 years before he joined Freemasonry.
    I won’t even get into the higher thought processes that are needed to grasp the idea that you completely misinterpret “Lucifer” as being the same as Satan. In the real world any scholar will tell you that 1. Lucifer is a Latin name and a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for Day Star. The Hebrew texts don’t even mention Lucifer, Satan or any fallen angel. The story is about a fallen Babylonian king.
    If you are one who believe that the KJV of the Bible is the literal and true word of G_d, then this is lost on you. I only hope you can wrap your head around the idea that it was men who translated the Hebrew Bible and other gospels to common English and they were not infallible. mistakes were made and corrected only in the mid 20th century. Check the facts and learn.

    • I’ve read a good bit of Morals and Dogma and several Masonic works. It’s a deistic, quasi-religious, philosophical system. Obviously you haven’t done your homework either, if you think I’m a KJV-only type goofus, given the tenor of what’s on this blog.

    • Is this fair enough – it’s a deistic system of philosophy?

  2. Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 5:36 pm // Reply

    Deistic in appearance only to the outsider. The vast majority of Masons belong to a mainstream Protestant Church and attend Church as well.
    What you fail to grasp is that Freemasonry does not push any form of religion and it is specifically banned from Lodge room because it is a subject that divides men.
    Reading Morals and Dogma without a frame of reference is like reading the world guide for beer, by a teetotaler. The teetotaler cannot reconcile the fundamental ideas of why someone would drink this substance.
    It may be cliché, but it still fits: Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. Now that’s fair enough.
    It always makes me laugh when someone outside of a group can have the audacity to claim that know more then any of it’s own members.
    Freemasonry has been my study for I am sure much longer than you even knew how to read. I have done my homework quite extensively.

    • I didn’t say it promoted a certain religion. Masonic historian Jasper Ridley says it’s deistic. There is nothing about my site that is “teetotaler.” Your definition of it as a system of morality is a good point – there is no morality without religion. Morality presupposes theology.

      • Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 5:56 pm //

        Circular logic…Of course Freemasonry is religious in nature as there can be no morality with out a belief in a Supreme Being. “No atheist can be a Freemason if he rightly understands the art”.

        I used the teetotaler as an analogy not literally.

        As to Ridley, well I enjoyed his book, but again he is not a Freemason, so his opinion is outside and profane.

        A generic approach to all religion does not presuppose a certain theology, deistic or otherwise. What it does do is allow men of different faiths to meet in peace and brotherhood for a common good.

        The point is no one man speaks for all Freemasonry. Each man must learn what it is and how to understand it for their own self improvement. This process can take a lifetime and no amount of reading of Masonic authors can ‘enlighten’ you, unless you are on the inside.

        Many Masonic authors are philosophical, but it is just their opinion. Some are respected more than others. In the end they will use terms and allegory that is open to interpretation as all symbols are open to interpretation. That does not make them right or wrong, just another idea that each member can accept or reject.

      • All arguments are ultimately circular. The system you profess is neatly ambiguous to the point that no one can say what it is or pin it down. Its not religious, but it is. it’s not a system of belief, but it is. This all comes from the fact that it’s a dualistic gnostic system. Pike says this in the first few chapters of Morals & Dogma – that Masonry is the successor to the gnostic mystery schools – the Manichaeans, the Cathari, etc.

        So, whether one cites Mackey’s Encyclopedia or Pike or Hall or whoever, it never matters in discussions with you guys (and I’ve had several), because the actual facts and statements and constitutions of lodges are denied, defelected and quotations ignored. I know the response that it’s a mystery religion and the profane cannot grasp it, but that just doen’t work when we can read your writings and rituals and see what it is. The fact of the matter is, it’s a rejection of the One true God and the Incarnation of Christ, for all it’s claims of being pro-theistic.

        ‘A generic approach to all religion does not presuppose a certain theology, deistic or otherwise. What it does do is allow men of different faiths to meet in peace and brotherhood for a common good.”

        It most certainly does.

      • Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 6:27 pm //

        I certainly do not reject my faith in the one true G_d and the divinity of Christ.

        The issue relates to Freemasonry and means different things to different people. Freemasons are free to make up their own minds with regards to religion and the faith of their choice.

        Pike was quite a prolific writer and definitely a person who thought outside the box. That does not mean that all Masons must believe in the same ideas as Pike, Mackey or Hall. In fact I would suggest most have not read anything Pike or Hall wrote or even heard of them. Pike was the leader of the Scottish Rite of the Southern jurisdiction only. He worked to build the Rite in his own way and many authors have made grandiose claims to make it sound mysterious. So Pike’s statements could by some seem like self serving.

        There is no leader of all Freemasonry that can assert any belief.

        What a new member is admonished from the start is that Freemasons open the volume of sacred law, usually the Bible on it’s alters and points to it and tells the new member to study its contents and follow it’s divine teachings. That is the extent of it, period.

        Pike can make all the claims he wants, and it makes it damn convenient that he has been dead for over 100 years so we cannot question him. Pike studied ancient, extinct religions and made comparative ideas about them and their relation to Freemasonry. He can claim all he wants that Freemasonry is a mystery religion, that does not make is fact and many Masonic scholars adamantly disagree with him.

        I have denied nothing you quoted, just placed the quotes on proper context. Consider the source.

        You cannot read the ritual or the philosophical writings of a few of it’s members and understand the whole, not possible. Freemasonry must be experienced.

        If you want to play the author/quote game please read Joseph Fort Newton’s The Builders and let me know. He was a Mason and a Baptist Minister and wrote in the early part of the 20th century, so not too long after Pike. This will give you some contrast and may assist you in shedding this inane thought that Masons deny Christ.

      • Christianity is, essentially, what is taught at the first seven ecumenical councils. Masonry is united in its rejection of that.

      • Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 6:40 pm //

        Now where did you get that wacky idea?

        Where did you find that Masonry is united in anything religious or otherwise?

      • Come on man, that doesn’t work here.

  3. Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 6:52 pm // Reply

    Please provide cites and references to your allegations. In other words put up or shut up.
    I know you cannot so this will be easy.

    I am sure your allegations will come as a shock to the millions of Christian Freemasons, it is to laugh…

    • The citations are all rejected by you. You’ve already contradicted yourself several times. It’s a waste of time.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:08 pm //

        Well I believe he told you that no one Mason speaks for all Masonry. What part of that do you not get?

        He did not contradict himself,merely pointed out your inconsistencies and your obvious religious intolerance.

  4. steve dalton // April 21, 2010 at 7:25 pm // Reply

    Tin Machine, quit lying and disassembling. I’m from a very old Masonic family, and I know the Masons, especially in the Scottish Rite, are anti-Christian, particularly anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox. And don’t give me that “Christian Mason” nonsence. I know there are a lot of “Christian Masons”. However, every Christian body that has ever taken a serious look at Masonry has always condemned it as pagan, Judaistic, and anti-Christian. So “CM’s” are rebelling against what their own Churches are teaching about membership in the Masonic Order.

    • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 7:39 pm // Reply

      That is a blatant lie. Tin Machine is not dissembling anything other then the inaccuracies of the OPs misconstrued posts and out of context quotes.

      I highly doubt your family was part of a very old Masonic anything. If it were you would know the true nature of Freemasonry.

      Organized Churches have looked at Freemasonry and their concern was based on the fact that they wee worried that Freemasonry would take men away for the church, in other words, collection dollars.

      I know of no Mason that teaches anything in any Church other then the doctrine of the Church they belong to.

      • Freemasonry rejects the Catholic Church – the one true Church. End of story.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:05 pm //

        Freemasonry does not reject the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church rejects Freemasonry.
        I know a few Catholic Freemasons and a man of any faith is welcome as Freemasonry is not a religion

      • All of which deny Christ. Your false philosophy is deistic and rationalistic and has sought for years to destroy the Church as per your Knight’s Kadosh ritual where you stab the papal tiara. Take your disinfo elsewhere.

        “Thus the Order of Knights of the Temple was at its very origin devoted to the cause of opposition to the tiara of Rome and the crowns of Kings, and the Apostolate of Kabalistic Gnosticism was vested in its chiefs. For Saint John himself was the Father of the Gnostics, and the current translation of his polemic against the heretical of his Sect and the pagans who denied that Christ was the Word, is throughout a misrepresentation, or misunderstanding at least, of the whole Spirit of that Evangel.” -Pike

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:15 pm //

        You grapple with something that you cannot possibly understand and then stand in judgment that it must be evil.

        That is so inquisition of you.

        None of the authors you quote have ever denied Christ and you know it. I dare you to post actual quotes that support your allegation, you can’t because that do not exist.

        Now that you have gotten nasty once your ideas and disinfo were challenged, your true colors as a religious intolerant come to light.

        You are the evil on sir. How can you point to the speck in someone else’s eye and ignore the plank in your own. I would suggest you be a bit more Christ like yourself

        Good day Sir!

      • No, in reality you are blinded by a false system, and we pray for your true enlightenment. We are not your enemies, nor are we in darkness. We hope for your salvation. Here is more proof we know what we are talking about:

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:31 pm //

        Well if you think that you have the only answer, then you are truly in darkness.

        I pity you and will pray for you.

        You analysis is based on a perceived understanding of the man, which you do not have and your preconceived ideas and you obvious bias.

        You rely solely on Pike to prove you argument as so many Anti masons do. It is pitiful and sad.

        For the real scoop on these bogus Pike quotes, try here:

      • Nope, I cited Hall earlier, as well as citing other masonic writers and thinkers in the past. There is no such thing as neutrality. It’s a lie of modernity. You are either a Christian with Christ, or you are not. You can tell yourself you accept both, but it’s impossible. They are incompatible philosophies.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:38 pm //

        Well that is you opinion. I find they are not only compatible but complimentary. I am not neutral, I am firmly Christian in my religion.

        Hall was a self avowed mystic. I have read Halls works and ascribe no value in it.

        And like it was before said he wrote the passage you quoted when he was barley 21 years old and 30+ years before he became a Freemason.

      • No, it’s a fact, not an opinion, and you are unfortunately in heresy, as there is no such thing as a gnostic Christian.

      • It is clear whose side you are on. Writing in about 90-100 A.D., the famous Bishop of Antioch says in his epistle to the Smyrneans:

        Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics
        They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

        Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
        See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

        -He is speaking of gnostics there.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:53 pm //

        I can see the Church exacting their total authority in those passages as they have done for centuries.

        It is no wonder The Vatican opposed Freemasonry. Freemasonry teaches free thinking, a good thing. Catholics are taught that the Church will do your thinking for you so don’t bother.

      • Your “free thinking” has so fuddled and clouded your mind that you can’t even make a consistent argument without avoiding relativism and contradictions in a few sentences. A lot of good it’s done you.

        If you admit the Church is asserting it’s authority in those passages, then you admit gnosticism was not the first true Christianity.

        Some of the most brilliant people I know are devout Catholics and many of the greatest minds of the last 2,000 years were Catholic or Orthodox believers, so it’s just false that we don’t think. I read everything – occultists, atheists, gnostics, other religions, etc.

      • 1Timothy 6:20 …avoiding the profane and idle babbling and contradictions of what is falsely called gnosis…

      • Ive read several articles at masonicinfo. I’m not new to this.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:27 pm //

        OK gain you misunderstand what Pike is saying. The tiara of Rome is not the Pope if that is your objection.

        Pike is also talking about The actual Knights Templar, which historians have discounted were ever really connected to Freemasonry.

        If you bothered to check you would find that Pike was a strict Trinitarian and devout Christian. Much of Pike’s research has been disproved over the last hundred years and I have no doubt he was somewhat Anti Catholic as were most citizens of the US during his lifetime. Another time and another place. You cannot ascribe the attitudes of a long dead man to a current organization.
        Again disingenuous as Pike is a fascinating read, but hardly taken as fact by any modern Mason.

      • It’s gnostic, dude. Pike says this numerous times in his book. A gnostic is not a Christian.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:34 pm //

        I hate to burst you bubble but Gnostics are/were the first Christians.

        Again Pike says…Pike says. You are using the man as a crutch to justify your position.

        He is not the epitome of Freemasonry, get it through your head…dude..

      • He is an examplar mason, and you are patently wrong. Gnostics were not the first Christians and thank you for conceding the argument I’ve been making all along. I can show you from the New Testament through St. Ignatius, to Irenaeus to Cyprian as well as all the Eastern Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils our doctrines are the same and consistent. You have fallen prey to a deception of the Masons that the organized Catholic Church was a later creation in opposition to the gnostics. It’s false and easily shown to be so by examining the teachings of the bishops mentioned as well as the saints lives and liturgies.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:48 pm //

        Conjecture and opinion only. The early Christians could have been labeled as Gnostic and you know it. The Catholic Church didn’t spring out of nowhere. It took several centuries to amalgamate.

        By the way I didn’t learn this from any Mason or Masonic writer, I learned this in a comparative religion and history class in college.

        The Catholic Church consistent? Please an amoeba is more consistent.

        The Catholic Church was not created specifically to oppose the Gnostic, but as it developed and the Church began to regulate the gospels, the Gnostic gospels were rejected and faded from history.

      • Quotations are not conjecture and opinion.

        We believe the same things the Catholics of the first few centuries did, and this not hard to verify.

        You have now shown yourself to be contradicting yourself again, as earlier you said Masonry doesn’t reject Catholism. By logical necessity you must reject a religion that claims to be the one true religion, as Catholicism does. You reject that claim as false and here in this comment you admit you think it is inconsistent and therefore false.

        Second, earlier you said one has to experience masonry to understand it, and here you claim you learned all about it in comparative religion, which you claimed could not be done.

        I can go on and on with verifiable quotes, yet you’ve produced no quotations at all, but have contradicted yourself numerous times.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 9:05 pm //

        Are you stupid?

        I said no such things in that context.

        I see you’ll take my works and mix them as you wish to serve your ends. I guess that should be a compliment because you do the very same thing to Pike, Mackey and anyone else you think will serve your ends, dishonest or otherwise.

        Masonry does not reject Catholics. Masons accept any man who believes in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. Becasue…here it is again. Freemasonry is not a religion.

        I learned about Gnostics in a religious history class not through Masonry you dolt!

        Your quotes are misrepresented and out of context. I don’t have to prove anything as you made the allegation, the burden of proof is on you.

        Ah of course the Anti tactic of try and prove a negative comes out. combined with the change the subject tactic.
        You are transparent and a sad pitiful person.

      • No, I’m not and you’ve been refuted already. Nothing is taken out of context, you’re just a sore loser.

      • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 9:23 pm //

        Sore no, loser yes you are. No contradiction is as great as the ones you yourself have made.

        You claim to study all these things yet you still cannot hing for yourself. Another wasted soul.

        I am done with you.

      • How have I not thought for myself? I am being open and honest and telling you I find the philosophy presented as lacking and contradictory. You have not shown me where I have erred in consistency or argumentation, other than ad hominem arguments about how stupid I am. You have produced no quotations and no lucid arguments.

  5. Tin Machine // April 21, 2010 at 7:32 pm // Reply

    Why block me or delete my posts if you cannot provide even 1 credible source for you allegations? Hmmmm I wonder.

  6. A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 7:34 pm // Reply

    Can you provide cites or even one credible source for your allegations?

  7. It’s a matter of pride that makes you feel you are apart of something esoteric and deep, and really it’s just vanity and lies. It’s not that philosophical, it’s just a mish-mash of gnostic nonsense.

    • A Christian Mason // April 21, 2010 at 8:55 pm // Reply

      well that is your opinion.

      You mind is not capable or open enough to comprehend and idea without accepting it.

      • We can end this fallacy in about a minute. Is it your opinion that these facts are merely my opinion? You have to say no to be coherent. Yet you are attempting to be factual and objective. You are thus caught in relativism which is self-refuting. A factual citation is not an opinion anymore than 2+2=4 is an opinion. Here’s another:

        “This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

        “First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

      • That my mind is incapable of comprehending things without accepting them is false and is an ad hominem. I have a degree in philosophy and have read and comprehended many philosophers and thinkers I disagree with.

  8. This is funny. Jay is originally accused of not doing the research and not reading what Masons say on the topic. Then he quotes Pike et al. Then the mason says that no one man speaks for Masonry, which sort of negates the point of going to masonic sources. Either these Masonic writers are accurate and authoritative, or they are not. If they are, then deal with Jay’s questions. If they aren’t authoritative, and it is true that no one man speaks for masonry and all religions are equal and true, then why do you care what Jay says about Masonry?

    I mean, if Jay’s religion says Masonry is wrong, and Jay’s path to “enlightenment” means refuting Masonry, shouldn’t you, to be logically consistent, accept that?

  9. CM: “Well if you think that you have the only answer, then you are truly in darkness.”

    You try to make several arguments, but then show your position to be purely relativistic. Relativism is self-refuting.

    CM: “I know of no Mason that teaches anything in any Church other then the doctrine of the Church they belong to.”

    The various churches and sects profess conflicting doctrines and dogmas and therefore you show that by saying all these contradicting sects can join together in your sect, it is irrational and contradictory. Tin machine said: “I certainly do not reject my faith in the one true G_d and the divinity of Christ.” But you, as a gnostic, most certainly do not accept the teaching of the 7 councils.

    You go on and claim that Masonry does not* reject the teaching of the councils when you say concerning Pike and others:

    “None of which deny Christ” and “Freemasonry does not reject the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church rejects Freemasonry.”

    And then later you claim:

    “I hate to burst you bubble but Gnostics are/were the first Christians,” and admit this is in opposition to the Church of that era, which you agreed asserted it’s authority. Thus you flat-out contradicted yourself on these issues.

    Again, everything you have claimed and argued is contradictory and self-refuting.

  10. Jonathan Companik // April 21, 2010 at 10:05 pm // Reply


    Not only do your quotes and citations mean nil; not only does consistency of argumentation amount to nothing if you are Catholic or Orthodox (you are still ignorant – because I say so!), but it’s not fair to quote Pike because you’re picking on a poor dead man who isn’t capable of defending himself LOL

  11. Nuno Fonseca // April 21, 2010 at 11:04 pm // Reply

    These two masons show perfectly what is wrong with the worldview they brought about: relativistic pluralist arrogant mystics who can only alternate between intellectualy dishonest doublespeak and baseless adhominem insults. Are sheer oxymoronic statements and endlessly looping tautologies only discernable through their Gnosis?

    Their travesty is obvious when they affirm that Catholicism is compatible with Freemasonry and then try to question the Church’s authenticity and apostolic authority.

    I hate Freemasonry. I loathe it. You destroyed Portugal – my country. You took the last European empire, that extended from South America through Africa and India, and all the way to Asia; that brought Western civilization and Christianity to the Third World – and you dismantled it, pillaged it, ransacked it and moved along to the next Atlantic superpower to repeat your routine. You brainwashed our people and turned us against our Monarchy and our Church. You killed our King and beheaded our priests. You made a mockery out of a 700 year old Kingdom and turned it into a Banana Republic. Then you gave all our colonies away to Commies and guerrillas that destroyed the cities we built there and engaged in civil war ad aeternum, in African fratricide. You gave us your Socialist Atheist bullshit for 20 years, forcefed us abortion laws and legalized gay marriage ignoring popular referendum. You pay the media to further brainwash our people with anticlericalism and your progressive totalitarian propaganda. The mouth of Hell is thirsting for you.

    You do not possess the Truth. Truth doesn’t hide behind anonymacy, nor does it cover itself under secret temples, nor does it conspire among aprons and stupid Luciferian rituals, nor does it enlighten anyone through deceit nor behind-the-scenes’ manipulation.

    If there’s any decency and common sense left in you esoteric autocratic minds seriously consider what you are doing to mankind – and may God have mercy upon your souls.

  12. steve dalton // April 21, 2010 at 11:18 pm // Reply

    Christian Mason, I’m most certainly from a very old Masonic family. Nearly all of my male relatives and ancestors were Masons. My family was also Marrano Crypto-Jew, so they were members of two secret societies.

    As for the reasons why all the Christian churches that have seriously examined Freemasonry have denounced it, the reasons I gave were the ones these churches gave for doing so.

    Yes, all of these churches were concerned about losing members to the lodge. Their concern was motivated by concern for the men’s spirital welfare, for FM, in spite of the denials of you and your fellow Masons, is a religion, that uses rituals drawn from pagan antiquity to form it’s members. It is also well known that many Masons get deep into the occult as a result of their involvement in the lodge. Money was never the primary reason for opposing FM, it was, as I have already stated, concern for the spiritual well-being of themen being drawn into a non-Christian religion.

    You want a source? Try “Christianity and American Freemasonry” by William Whalen. It has all the things I’ve taloked about in my post.

  13. Patrick Hall // April 22, 2010 at 1:23 am // Reply


    What makes “free thinking”, “good”? Please, explain.

  14. I missed your initial claim about Lucifer which is pure nonsense and shows that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You think Satan is never mentioned in Hebrew texts, which just shows your ignorance. You came here assuming you were dealing with ignorant Protestant fudamentalists, and you aren’t.

    In both Is. 14 and Ezekiel 28 the fall of Babylon and the King of Tyre is likened to the fall of Lucifer. Ez. 28 even mentions a Cherub, which cannot be a mere man. Furthermore, this is the traditional Jewish reading:

    But had you actually read your Bible, you would know that Satan is mentioned in Job 1 and 2. For example:

    1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

    Satan is mentioned in Zech 3:1-2:

    1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    Satan is mentioned in 1 Chron. 21:

    “1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.”

    And contrary to your gnostic fables, Satan is the serpent in the garden, as the Apocalypse makes clear. The word Lucifer is day star and is used of both Satan and Jesus, just like the word lion is used of Satan and Jesus. So again you have demonstrated that your beliefs are not Christian, but a gnostic myth.

  15. “The religion of Masonry is cosmopolitan, universal…God is equally present with the Hindoo in the temple, the Jew in the synagogue or the Mohammedan in the mosque, or the Christian in the Church.” -Mackey’s Encyclopedia of Masonry, “God”

    This is called syncretism. Is God equally with the Satanist? God doesn’t care if one is an idolator?

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